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desde sus enfáticos años y su sintética voz de adolescente
Cal. de Dictam.
Jul 15, 2019 13:05
4 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Spanish term

No era exactamente guapa, ni dejaba de serlo.

Spanish to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature novel
"No era exactamente guapa, ni dejaba de serlo. Muy alta sí. Y muy segura de sí misma - como a quien no se le puede deber el olvido-"

I have tried translating this from a historical novel, but it's not reading very well in English.

"She wasn't exactly gorgeous, nor was she ugly. She was very tall and very sure of herself - like one who is not easily forgotten"

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +6 She wasn't exactly pretty, but neither was she plain
4 +5 She wasn't exactly/precisely pretty, but nor was she not.
3 +1 she wasn't exactly a handsome woman, but neither was she unattractive
4 She wasn't exactly pretty/a pretty girl, but she wasn't unpretty either
4 she wasn't necessarily attractive but she wasn't lacking either
4 She was not good looking, nor ugly/unattractive, for that matter either
4 there was a certain beauty about her
2 She was not exactly a great looker, but neither did she belie the description
2 She was not exactly pretty -- an aura of beauty would always be about her

Discussion

Chema Nieto Castañón Jul 17, 2019:
Hi Adrian, By no means am I trying to influence anyone's vote. If anything, I am just giving you guys some feedback on my own reading of the Spanish phrasing -in case it helps. My own choosing is rather irrelevant here but as a means to choose or write whatever fits the nuances I am trying to point out. Indeed, you could infer from what I wrote that Paula's rendering (there was a certain beauty about her) is very accurate as for what the original conveys as a whole (she was "somehow" pretty). And your own rendering (She was not exactly a great looker, but neither did she belie the description) is rather precise. I did not mention it before because "great looker" makes me think of (muy) atractiva rather than guapa and because the second part (neither did she belie the description), although beautiful, it sounds a bit too explicit here -but it might be because "the description" takes me back again to "great looker". Truth is that the more I read it, the more I like it (ni dejaba de serlo/neither did she belie the description); she was not exactly [pretty] neither did she belie the description.

Anyhow, I am afraid I might be breaking some rules again. Not my intention, really. Not at all!
Adrian MM. Jul 16, 2019:
@ Chema - discussion entry & exits If you had agreed with my suggestion, then I wouldn't have mentioned a Kudoz Site rule:

'3.4 The only acceptable means of commenting on another's answer is by using the peer comment feature.

Using the discussion area, the answer posting form or the answer explanation box to comment on another's suggestions is not allowed.'

By the same token, I would not venture to influence your own vote:

'3.6 No attempt may be made to influence others' decisions.
Encouraging an asker to choose one's own suggested translation, or peers to agree with one's own answers and/or disagree with answers provided by others, is prohibited. '
Chema Nieto Castañón Jul 16, 2019:
Also speaking as a non-native, I would go with Linda's rendering, although I would take the "but" off -just as John has suggested.
She wasn't exactly pretty, nor was she not.
The idea, in full agreement with John's argument, is that she was actually pretty, not just plain; she was "somehow" pretty. Marie's rendering does actually say it all; not exactly pretty, but neither was she plain. And yet, this might be just a too clear reading in contrast.
Emily Staunton (X) (asker) Jul 15, 2019:
@John Thanks for your help John. Yes you're certainly right in saying that there is a casualness and contemporary twang to her writing! Although this is a historical novel, it is told though a series of flashbacks so there is definitely a modern voice to be communicated to the reader.
JohnMcDove Jul 15, 2019:
Well, the Spanish is rather colloquial. If this is from the preface to the novel, (2006) by a current Spanish author, the "casualness" seems intentional to my Castilian ears. I think all of the answers have it more or less right. But there is a "progressive" quality in the original that I don't know how it can be conveyed in English. All the English versions use "but" but even if implied in Spanish, it is not stated, which makes it more elegantly colloquial. Like in a "funny" cliché such as "ni sí ni no, sino todo lo contrario". She was not exactly gorgeous, neither was she failing to be it. (The author is saying she was attractive) At any rate. My "Henglish" might be horrendous, but I am pretty certain of my "Ejpañol". The writing sounds to me pretty contemporary, and if this is addressed to a current readership, I would not mince words, but try to communicate with clarity. Well, either that, or the exact opposite! ;-))
Carol Gullidge Jul 15, 2019:
@ Emily "nor was she not" sounds slightly too colloquial/casual to my UK EN ears - more spoken than written, but perhaps not even that at the time. So maybe a bit too modern even for the 1930's? I'm quite old (but post 1930s!), and can remember a time when this expression would have sounded rather odd, in the UK at any rate.
Emily Staunton (X) (asker) Jul 15, 2019:
It is set in the historical context of the Spanish Civil War (1936-39). Thank you all for your help! with regard to this part, "como a quien no se le puede deber el olvido" what do you think of - She wasn’t exactly pretty, but nor was she not. She was very tall and also very sure of herself. She was someone who is not easily forgotten.
Barbara Cochran, MFA Jul 15, 2019:
@Linda Yes, I think it is somewhat difficult for a contemporary translator not to put their own contemporary biases into their work.
Linda Grabner Jul 15, 2019:
@Carol Very good point, as I noted in my response. Whatever choice you make is going to depend on the time period of the novel, as well as how well the original author reflects that time period. (Again, I can't help but think of the difference in how Georgette Heyer words things in her historical novels, and how some more modern historical romance writers tend to take a more modern tone in both narration and dialogue.)
Barbara Cochran, MFA Jul 15, 2019:
Agree With Carol See my answer below.
Carol Gullidge Jul 15, 2019:
context? Does this description date to a certain period in history? It could be that "gorgeous" is too modern - along with "great looker"

Proposed translations

+6
6 mins
Selected

She wasn't exactly pretty, but neither was she plain

One option.
Peer comment(s):
agree Carol Gullidge
2 hrs
Thanks, Carol!
agree franglish
5 hrs
Thanks, franglish!
agree Adolfo Fulco
5 hrs
Thanks, Adolfo!
agree Toni Castano : This would be my understanding too.
5 hrs
Thanks, Toni!
agree ormiston : the register suits
21 hrs
Thanks, ormiston!
agree Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
1 day 8 hrs
Thanks, Beatriz!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
34 mins

She was not exactly a great looker, but neither did she belie the description

Seems a somewhat contradictory or ironical statement.

Low confidence also because of uncertainty of the target-vernacular:

(BrE) A great looker: (IrE/Dublin) 'a beautiful moth'.

Query: 'was not' rather than 'wasn't' in a literary context.
Reference:

http://eng.proz.com/kudoz/spanish-to-english/linguistics/1231312-dejar-de-hacer.html

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+1
27 mins

she wasn't exactly a handsome woman, but neither was she unattractive

"very tall" and "very sure of herself" tend to refer to male attributes more often than not, so that's way I would use "handsome woman".

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Note added at 31 mins (2019-07-15 13:36:41 GMT)
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https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/a-handsome-woman.600...

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Note added at 42 mins (2019-07-15 13:47:47 GMT)
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Also, since your text is a "historical novel", and the term "handsome woman" has also been used during bygone eras (see the link), I think it would be the appropriate term, in this case.
Peer comment(s):
agree Andrea Sacchi
42 mins
Thank you, Andrea.
neutral Toni Castano : Sorry, I have certain misgivings regarding "attractive/unattractive" in this context. As for "handsome", my impression is that it´s a bit old-fashioned if it´s applied to a woman.
5 hrs
Not "old-fashioned" in a historical context.
neutral Simon Charass : With Tony on this one.
6 hrs
agree Clarkalo : Given it is a historical novel, "handsome" seems very appropriate, especially if is set around or before the turn of the twentieth century.
1 day 4 hrs
Thanks, Clarkalo.
disagree Linda Grabner : "a handsome woman" tends to have very specific connotations, such as an older woman, and more, I don't know, regal and classically beautiful than merely pretty.
2 days 23 mins
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54 mins

She wasn't exactly pretty/a pretty girl, but she wasn't unpretty either

https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0977755851
Betty Pelley Smith - 2007
atmosphere, strained and somber, was diametrically opposed to the lilting triumphant happiness that ... She wasn't a pretty girl but she wasn't "unpretty" either.
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1 hr

she wasn't necessarily attractive but she wasn't lacking either

simple and to the point.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Toni Castano : "Pretty" and "attractive" don´t mean the same. In my view, "attractive" has a wider scope and includes not only appearance, but also personality.
3 hrs
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3 hrs

She was not good looking, nor ugly/unattractive, for that matter either

I think the "for that matter" really helps the sentence's flow.
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22 hrs

there was a certain beauty about her

Here's an option that doesn't begin with She... and I believe it includes the not, but at the same time yes idea that she is not beautiful but she is not ugly or plain either.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Linda Grabner : I like it, but I feel like it doesn't go far enough in making clear that a first glance wouldn't register her "prettiness". I feel there's a qualitative difference b/tw pretty and beautiful. Perhaps a combination of yours and mine?
7 hrs
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+5
15 mins

She wasn't exactly/precisely pretty, but nor was she not.

Unless your context gives you reason to go for the superlative (gorgeous), I think I'd stick with the more generic "pretty", particularly since the author is apparently attenuating it anyway.

My suggestion is based on its being from a historical novel. I've read plenty of those (Georgette Heyer, anyone?), and I think this phrasing would sound appropriate for something like a Heyer novel. Depending on other factors (overall tone of the novel, for instance), you might want to word it slightly differently, perhaps something like "She wasn't exactly/precisely pretty, but she wasn't someone you were going to forget". Also, just the way it's worded in Spanish leads me away from the more direct "but she wasn't ugly/plain, either".

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Note added at 1 hr (2019-07-15 14:27:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In fact, Emily, you could do a lot worse than to read some Georgette Heyer (if you haven't already) for a very good example of how to match narration and dialogue to the historical period. Heyer wrote in the 1930s & 40s (maybe early 50s, too, I don't remember), both historical novels and more contemporary mysteries. And she was a master researcher of linguistic styles, apparently, because you could tell, especially from her dialogue, whether her historicals were set in the 1700s or the Regency period.

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Note added at 1 day 5 hrs (2019-07-16 18:34:41 GMT)
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I think Paula has a good idea, but I do think the first part of the sentence still needs to be included. Per my comment to her, here's an idea that combines hers and mine:
She wasn't pretty, precisely, but there was a certain beauty about her.

Just one more possibility among many good suggestions.
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : This preserves the idea of the Spanish - there's no need to find an antonym for "guapa".
23 mins
Thanks, Phil!
agree Toni Castano : Yes, this works too, I believe.
5 hrs
neutral ormiston : a wee bit clunky with that double negative
7 hrs
Perhaps, but in this context, I think there's something to be said for the double negative.
agree Hugh Thomson : Yes, I think this reflects the Spanish well.
8 hrs
agree Chema Nieto Castañón : I like the nor was she not...
1 day 6 hrs
neutral Paula Sepúlveda (X) : For me, it's the nor was she not that sort of grates
1 day 7 hrs
agree JohnMcDove : I would go with "She wasn't exactly pretty, nor was she not." As Chema notes in the discussion. But I admit this question is "not exactly tricky, it is indeed!!" ;-)
1 day 10 hrs
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10 hrs

She was not exactly pretty -- an aura of beauty would always be about her

She was not exactly pretty -- she exuded an aura of beauty impossible to define.

As I note in the discussion, to render the nuance of beauty in the original seems a chimerical feat, but I am giving few other options in case this might inspire some other ideas on how to convey the "exact" idea... ;-)

Literally,

She was not exactly pretty; nor would she ever failed to being so

She was not exactly pretty, in the orthodox manner / per the canons /per the official standards; yet she couldn't help but (constantly) exude (an aura of) beauty.

At any rate, like Huidobro would say, "Para qué cantáis la rosa, ¡oh, poetas! Hacedla florecer en el poema". (Whether this is a non-sequitur quote or not, may be debatable, it is just in the aesthetic vein, and the subject reminded me the "Creacionismo" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creacionismo, which would not be too departed from Chomsky and company... ;-)

Saludos cordiales.



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Note added at 10 hrs (2019-07-15 23:58:55 GMT)
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She was not pretty in every way; in every way she couldn't help but exude beauty.

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Note added at 14 hrs (2019-07-16 03:19:37 GMT)
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She was not what one could exactly call "pretty", nor could she stop at any time being beautiful...

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Note added at 1 day 10 hrs (2019-07-16 23:52:57 GMT)
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She was not exactly pretty, she was indeed attractive (though!)

She was not pretty, in the hackneyed sense of the word, nor any look at her would demonstrate the opposite...

She was not exactly pretty -- you could delete the modifier though... ;-)
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