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簡單而又常被譯得不明不白的單詞
Thread poster: jyuan_us
ysun
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印刷体 Sep 14, 2011

Last Hermit wrote:

至于“印刷体”,毕竟和“手写体”相对,难免令人产生误会。

我在前面已经说过:
http://www.proz.com/post/1777361#1777361
ysun wrote:

如果查一下中国大陆、香港、台湾出版的英汉词典,你将会发现,其中关于 print 的译法基本上是一致的:
n. 印刷体,印刷字体
v. 用印刷体写
例如,香港出版的《朗文现代英汉双解词典》关于 print 的解释如下:
Print n 4.[U] letters, words, or language in printed form 印刷字體

Print v 10. To write (something) without joining the letters 把...寫成印刷體字:
Please print the address clearly in capital letters. 請用印刷體清楚地寫出住址。

现在我再举台湾出版的《廣解英漢辭典》中兩個例句:
Print: 4. 用印刷體寫…
Print your name clearly. 名字用印刷體寫清楚
Write your name in print. 用印刷體寫你的名字


至于中国大陆出版的英汉词典,那就更用不着我来引述了。有人说,词典里有的也不一定对。这话不错。不过,中、港、台的词典编辑们如此和谐一致,同一共识,同一表述,恐怕该值得我们琢磨琢磨了。


 
Libin PhD
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Sep 14, 2011



[Edited at 2011-09-14 18:00 GMT]


 
Libin PhD
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闂備礁鎼ˇ顐﹀疾濠婂牊鍋¢柕鍫濇穿婵櫕绻涘顔荤盎闁圭懓鐖奸弻鏇熺箾閸喗顨婇幃宄扳攽鐎n偆鍘卞 Sep 14, 2011

wherestip wrote:

Hey guys. I say we give this one a rest too. IMO, 楷书、正楷、印刷体、正体、工整书写、一笔一划地填写 ... all mean the same thing in this context.

I'd say take your pick.


[Edited at 2011-09-14 13:24 GMT]


这些在不同场合下用都是对的,为了兼顾中英文,我觉得用“请工整书写”不容易产生误会。
(这是标题,不知怎么回事,标题会出现乱码)

Signatue: ____________
Name (Print): ____________

签字: ____________
姓名(请工整书写):____________

有时候虽然从英文翻译成了中文,但是作为法律文件,签名往往还是得用自己惯常的英文签名,名字也要写成英文的或不同形式拼音的姓名,在海外使用时,英文原件和中文译文都要签字,文件中通常还会说两个文本如有歧义,以英文版本为准,在这种情况下,即使是中文翻译文本,签字也还是要用签署者惯常使用的英文签名和对应的英文(各种形式的拼音)姓名,以便与英文版的签字保持一致,这在官方语言为英文的环境下,也是法律的要求,中文翻译件只是为了帮助签署者理解文件的内容。

如果文件原件就是中文,不存在从英文翻译过来的问题,那么,撰写者可能写成

签字: ____________
姓名(请正楷书写):____________

也是完全正确的,意思还是要写的工整清楚,让人看得出来姓名是哪几个字。


[Edited at 2011-09-14 18:23 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
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TOPIC STARTER
Right, that is what I meant in the first place Sep 14, 2011

ysun wrote:

讨论翻译问题离不开上下文。这个关于 PRINT 的问题是这样提出的:
jyuan_us wrote:

签名下的PRINT

从印刷到"正楷",算是有了点进化, 但还是不准确. 工工整整,一笔一画地写才是准确的译法.

“签名下的PRINT”,显然是指这样的上下文:
Signatue: ____________
Name (Print): ____________

这里的 Print 显然就是指用英文一笔一画地写出姓名,往往还是指用英文大写字母书写,而不是用中文写出姓名。如果把这里的 "Name (Print)” 译为“姓名(正楷)”,那么即使是受过正规教育的人也会倾向于写下“陈大文”之类的中文姓名。


正楷 is misleading to me, who is someone with a graduate degree. When I'm misled, I tend to feel scared, esp when it comes to filling out government forms.

[Edited at 2011-09-14 18:36 GMT]

As a 遵纪守法的公民,I have the right of not being scared.

[Edited at 2011-09-14 18:37 GMT]


 
ysun
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Legal name Sep 14, 2011

Libin PhD wrote:

wherestip wrote:

Hey guys. I say we give this one a rest too. IMO, 楷书、正楷、印刷体、正体、工整书写、一笔一划地填写 ... all mean the same thing in this context.

I'd say take your pick.


[Edited at 2011-09-14 13:24 GMT]


这些在不同场合下用都是对的,为了兼顾中英文,我觉得用“请工整书写”不容易产生误会。
(这是标题,不知怎么回事,标题会出现乱码)

Signatue: ____________
Name (Print): ____________

签字: ____________
姓名(请工整书写):____________

有时候虽然从英文翻译成了中文,但是作为法律文件,签名往往还是得用自己惯常的英文签名,名字也要写成英文的或不同形式拼音的姓名,在海外使用时,英文原件和中文译文都要签字,文件中通常还会说两个文本如有歧义,以英文版本为准,在这种情况下,即使是中文翻译文本,签字也还是要用签署者惯常使用的英文签名和对应的英文(各种形式的拼音)姓名,以便与英文版的签字保持一致,这在官方语言为英文的环境下,也是法律的要求,中文翻译件只是为了帮助签署者理解文件的内容。

如果文件原件就是中文,不存在从英文翻译过来的问题,那么,撰写者可能写成

签字: ____________
姓名(请正楷书写):____________

也是完全正确的,意思还是要写的工整清楚,让人看得出来姓名是哪几个字。


[Edited at 2011-09-14 18:23 GMT]

Libin,

你说得很对。之所以要用英文或拼音字母签名,那是因为法律文件必须用 legal name 签署。有一年回国,我到北京中国工商银行开户。因为填的完全是中文表格,我没多加思索就签了我的中文名。结果,银行少爷把我填的表格和护照一起扔了出来,还教训我说,难道你的护照也是用中文签名的吗?虽然他那话说得不错,但我听起来很不是滋味。二十多年来我在国外还很少受到如此“礼遇”。后来,我到上海中国工商银行取钱,银行小姐又把我填的取款单、银行卡以及护照一起扔了出来,并说,你在北京开户就只能到北京取钱。其实我在北京开户时还特地问过,银行工作人员说在全国各地中国工商银行取钱都没问题。在国外,这种问题根本就不是什么问题。

对于“请工整书写”或「請工整塡寫」的说法,我也是同意的。
http://www.proz.com/post/1779197#1779197


[Edited at 2011-09-14 19:50 GMT]


 
wherestip
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金玉其外 败絮其中 Sep 14, 2011

ysun wrote:

... 有一年回国,我到北京中国工商银行开户。因为填的完全是中文表格,我没多加思索就签了我的中文名。结果,银行少爷把我填的表格和护照一起扔了出来,还教训我说,难道你的护照也是用中文签名的吗?虽然他那话说得不错,但我听起来很不是滋味。二十多年来我在国外还很少受到如此“礼遇”。后来,我到上海中国工商银行取钱,银行小姐又把我填的取款单、银行卡以及护照一起扔了出来,并说,你在北京开户就只能到北京取钱。其实我在北京开户时还特地问过,银行工作人员说在全国各地中国工商银行取钱都没问题。在国外,这种问题根本就不是什么问题。



With that kind of funky attitude, you're liable to lose your job in this country if there are enough complaints.

About 3 years ago, my sister needed a visa to go visit her in-laws in Beijing. I rode along with her to the Chinese Consulate in Houston. Man! The attitude of the woman clerk taking in the applications was just plain awful - not to us, but to some other folks who didn't have all the proper documents together. The thing most shocking to me was the haughty, impatient manner she talked down to those people. Her voice was so loud and harsh speaking into the service-window microphone, their private business could be heard almost throughout the waiting line. And I tell you, it was a long line, with plenty of non-Chinese folks mixed in. She might as well have broadcast everything over the PA system.

Incidentally, she had this awful pretentious tone the way she spoke Chinese too. But I know you can't fault somebody for that.

The young lady definitely lacked job and cross-cultural training. I couldn't believe they would send someone like that over here to work at the Consulate. It gave me a very bad impression indeed.

I would say perhaps that's what you call "culture shock". For all these years living in the U.S., I have never seen anything like it. And to tell you the truth, I don't remember ever seeing anything like it while living in China either - at least not in a business environment. I've seen similar encounters depicted in contemporary Chinese movies though, such as "Beijing Bicycle". That movie was definitely an eyeopener for me too.

http://www.proz.com/post/1540997#1540997

http://www.proz.com/post/426326#426326


[Edited at 2011-09-15 16:39 GMT]


 
ysun
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题外话 Sep 14, 2011

wherestip wrote:

... The most shocking thing to me was she spoke so loud with such an attitude, people's private business could be heard almost throughout the waiting line. And I tell you, it was a long line, with plenty of non-Chinese folks mixed in.

... Awful pretentious tone of speaking Chinese too.

Steve,

对于黑眼睛、黄皮肤的人,哪怕是在美国出生的华裔美国公民,他们往往就是如此。对于白皮肤、黑皮肤的人,他们就会客气得多。

最歧视中国人的往往就是中国人!


[Edited at 2011-09-15 01:27 GMT]


 
Libin PhD
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这话说得太对了 Sep 15, 2011

ysun wrote:

wherestip wrote:

... The most shocking thing to me was she spoke so loud with such an attitude, people's private business could be heard almost throughout the waiting line. And I tell you, it was a long line, with plenty of non-Chinese folks mixed in.

... Awful pretentious tone of speaking Chinese too.

Steve,

对于黑眼睛、黄皮肤的人,哪怕是在美国出生的华裔美国公民,他们往往就是如此。对于白皮肤、黑皮肤的人,他们就会客气得多。

最歧视中国人的往往就是中国人!


[Edited at 2011-09-15 01:27 GMT]


Yueyin这话说的太对了,等有时间我来谈谈回国时的体会。


 
ysun
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Welcome back! Sep 15, 2011

Libin PhD wrote:

Yueyin这话说的太对了,等有时间我来谈谈回国时的体会。

李斌:

很高兴看见你在论坛重新露面!你要是再不露面,有人会以为你已经改行了。其他人的情况我不大了解,但你的情况我还是相当清楚的。估计在我退休之后,你也不会改行。即使改行,也肯定是更上一层楼。据我所知,某些已改行的老朋友也过得相当潇洒。

[Edited at 2011-09-15 05:40 GMT]


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
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Local time: 06:40
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银行就没有种族偏见 Sep 15, 2011

对每个人一律傲慢。

至于ysun写的:
“其实我在北京开户时还特地问过,银行工作人员说在全国各地中国工商银行取钱都没问题。”

再正常不过。他们不仅傲慢,还无知。目前,中行已经开通了新的网上银行平台,现在可以进行跨地外汇结算 - 应该说,如果你是中国公民的话,可以进行跨地外汇结算。我去开户,问服务员,我家住厦门美金收到上海的帐户行吗,能取吗?可以啊,新平台可以跨地结外币。只有几个月后,追问了N次方N多次,才发现这个功能外籍人不能用。

高举国有银行的旗帜!绝对没有区别对待,只要你是人,我们高高兴兴地蔑视,高高兴兴地收费!


 
Libin PhD
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我这辈子就是做翻译了 Sep 15, 2011

ysun wrote:

Libin PhD wrote:

Yueyin这话说的太对了,等有时间我来谈谈回国时的体会。

李斌:

很高兴看见你在论坛重新露面!你要是再不露面,有人会以为你已经改行了。其他人的情况我不大了解,但你的情况我还是相当清楚的。估计在我退休之后,你也不会改行。即使改行,也肯定是更上一层楼。据我所知,某些已改行的老朋友也过得相当潇洒。

[Edited at 2011-09-15 05:40 GMT]


是的,我这辈子就是做翻译了,到目前为止已经做了将近3300个项目,说保险一点大概有30000多页了吧,打印出来有我两个多人高了,还打算再做十几年呢,不要上太高的楼了,以前有很多机会去大公司工作,但是天天起早开车上班哪有做翻译自由啊,而且不涉及任何人事纷争,落得清静,多好。


[Edited at 2011-09-15 06:52 GMT]


 
ysun
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你的统计似乎太保守 Sep 15, 2011

Libin PhD wrote:

是的,我这辈子就是做翻译了,到目前为止已经做了将近3300个项目,说保险一点大概有30000多页了吧,打印出来有我两个多人高了,还打算再做十几年呢,不要上太高的楼了,以前有很多机会去大公司工作,但是天天起早开车上班哪有做翻译自由啊,而且不涉及任何人事纷争,落得清静,多好。


[Edited at 2011-09-15 06:52 GMT]

我觉得你那30000多页的统计似乎太保守,应该远远不止这些。当然,你做了那么多项目,要想精确地统计是不大容易的。

除了你所说的那些好处以外,我认为做自由翻译的最大好处是 No recession for translation industry。缺点就是到外州或国外旅游时,还得提着笔记本电脑。


[Edited at 2011-09-16 06:04 GMT]


 
wherestip
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allow or permit Sep 16, 2011

nigerose wrote:

allow, permit这两个看似简单的词其实也不好翻译。
经常被翻译成“允许”,比如:
The software allows users to被翻译成"该软件允许用户..."
总觉得不对,但这种说法在大众媒体和专业文章都能看到。



是否可以用 "可供" 、"可使"、 "可让" ...? 我觉得这些比较符合中文习惯。

"允许" 确实太照搬英文的说法了,不仅太拟人化,而且较生硬。大概是查字典查出来直接照搬的吧。那天看到你这一帖,确实感到可悲。

A few ways I could think of to handle this:

"this software allows the user to ..."
"该软件可让用户 ...,"
"该软件使用户能够 ..."
"该软件为用户提供了 ..."
etc.

Of course a lot depends on what the entire original sentence is, and how it fits into the rest of the language.


[Edited at 2011-09-16 17:07 GMT]


 
pkchan
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就用“讓” 好了 Sep 16, 2011

wherestip wrote:

nigerose wrote:

allow, permit这两个看似简单的词其实也不好翻译。
经常被翻译成“允许”,比如:
The software allows users to被翻译成"该软件允许用户..."
总觉得不对,但这种说法在大众媒体和专业文章都能看到。



是否可以用 "可供" 、"可使"、 "可让" ...? 我觉得这些比较符合中文习惯。

"允许" 确实太照搬英文的说法了,不仅太拟人化,而且较生硬。大概是查字典查出来直接照搬的。那天看到你这一帖,确实感到可悲。

A few ways I could think of to handle this:

"this software allows the user to ..."
"该软件可让用户 ...,"
"该软件使用户可以 ..."
"该软件可给用户提供 ..."
etc.

Of course a lot of it depends on what the entire original sentence is, and how it fits into the rest of the language.


[Edited at 2011-09-16 14:45 GMT]


 
Libin PhD
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看来是不止 Sep 16, 2011

ysun wrote:

Libin PhD wrote:

是的,我这辈子就是做翻译了,到目前为止已经做了将近3300个项目,说保险一点大概有30000多页了吧,打印出来有我两个多人高了,还打算再做十几年呢,不要上太高的楼了,以前有很多机会去大公司工作,但是天天起早开车上班哪有做翻译自由啊,而且不涉及任何人事纷争,落得清静,多好。


[Edited at 2011-09-15 06:52 GMT]

我觉得你那30000多页的统计似乎太保守,应该远远不止这些。当然,你做了那么多项目,要想精确地统计是不大容易的。

除了你所说的那些好处以外,我认为做自由翻译的最大好处是 No recession for translation industry。缺点就是到外州或国外旅游时,还得提着笔记本电脑。


[Edited at 2011-09-16 06:04 GMT]


看来是不止,光是我们一起做的200多个专利加校对的工作量可能就有1万多页了。我只是估计一下,没有认真统计。

[Edited at 2011-09-16 16:15 GMT]


 
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