| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Regulate the characters that can be used for Chinese names. Thread poster: Kevin Yang
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Kevin Yang 
Local time: 09:55
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
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Dear Translators,
I would like to share with you this article I read online. I am glad to see someone start to give attention to this issue.
When selecting Chinese names, the uniqueness and individuality are always the considerations. I noticed some parents went to an extreme by picking up certain characters from the Kangxi Dictionary. It seems the less commanly used characters can be more unique. The problem is that the computers cannot find those uncommonly used chara... See more Dear Translators,
I would like to share with you this article I read online. I am glad to see someone start to give attention to this issue.
When selecting Chinese names, the uniqueness and individuality are always the considerations. I noticed some parents went to an extreme by picking up certain characters from the Kangxi Dictionary. It seems the less commanly used characters can be more unique. The problem is that the computers cannot find those uncommonly used characters. You will see the author has to add a bracket and lists all the components in it (i.e Kun as 方+方+土).
What is a better way to go, to add more characters into the Chinese disctionary for computers or simply regulate the choice of characters that can be used for Chinese names?
Kevin
新華網（2003-05-29 09:05:23）來源：京華時報 (chinesenewsnet.com)
國家語委將規範人名用字 (chinesenewsnet.com)
《文匯報》5月22日的一條新聞近日引起了讀者的關注。上海市教委語言文字管理處處長孫曉先在接受記者採訪時透露，國家語委即將出臺《人名規範用字表》，對“起名”作進一步的規範。《成都商報》記者5月27日從國家教育部語用所獲悉，目前正在研究制定的《人名規範用字表》包括三級文字，估計總數不會超過12000個漢字。這一數目已大大超過普通級字庫6763個漢字的數量，足以滿足人名用字的需要。《人名用字表》將報國務院立項，並將在廣泛徵集群眾意見的基礎上由國家行政機關在全國頒行。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
《成都商報》5月28日的報道說，近年來，越來越多的人開始從《康熙字典》等“大部頭”中精挑細選生僻字、異體字給孩子起名。這些生僻的漢字給戶口登記、辦理身份證件、檔案管理、出入境等工作帶來不少麻煩，違反了資訊社會簡捷、便利的特徵，已經成為城市資訊化進程中的瓶頸。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
對此，有網友質疑，到底是姓名中的生僻字，還是管理能力的滯後成了城市資訊化進程中的瓶頸？時代不斷進步，是讓管理跟上時代，還是讓時代來適應管理呢？並進而指出：管理應該不斷跟上複雜的社會變遷，不斷透過管理技術創新來適應社會秩序的調整。“於一”這個名字最簡單不過了，也非常方便管理，可是，社會不是“於一”這麼簡單。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
兩種聲音： (chinesenewsnet.com)
規範人名用字的積極意義(chinesenewsnet.com)
國家語委擬出臺《人名規範用字表》，是與國家法制化、現代化的進程合拍的，意義重大。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
首先，對人名用字進行規範，是漢字標準化的必然選擇。《國家通用語言文字法》第三條規定，“國家推廣普通話，推行規範漢字”。這就意味著生產、生活中的一切語言文字行為都要符合國家頒布的規範、標準。人名用字使用最為頻繁，自然要納入規範化和標準化的軌道。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
第二，是實施《國家通用語言文字法》的重要環節。２００１年起實施的《國家通用語言文字法》已將語言文字規範化、標準化工作納入法制軌道，對我國的語言生活產生了深遠的影響。隨著姓名用字暴露的問題越來越突出，對姓名用字進行規範是必要的。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
第三，是資訊化發展的迫切要求。標準化是現代化的內容之一。當人類進入資訊社會，要求各項事物標準化，也需要現代漢字更好的規範化和標準化，以便在教育、生活、生產管理計算機化和情報資料檢索國際化中獲得最好的使用效益，所以漢字包括人名用字必須進行規範。如果姓名用字可以隨心所欲，出現大量生冷、孤僻字，就違反了資訊社會簡捷、便利的特徵，成為資訊化的瓶頸。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
第四，國家規範語言文字，正是尊重語言發展規律的體現，有利於提高國家通用語言文字的地位。任何一種成熟的語言，都要有一系列的規範和標準作為支撐，以保證其規範化、標準化以及權威性，漢語也不例外。（《南方都市報》5月24日文/梁勇） (chinesenewsnet.com)
姓名權與政府公共角色轉型(chinesenewsnet.com)
民政部門為某個人的姓名登記，實際上提供的是一種公共服務。而從我國政務改革來看，公共服務這種理念正在逐漸取代傳統意義上的“管理”理念。管理一般是從政府的角度出發，考慮的是管理的效率和便利；而公共服務則是盡可能地為民眾提供一切便利有益的服務，儘管這種服務可能會給政府帶來更多的工作和“負擔”，但這是把社會公平細節化的一種必要手段。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
有關部門之所以要規範姓名，是因為“那些姓名中生僻的字常常是普通漢語字庫裏所沒有的，有關部門做生、冷僻字字庫投入太大”。也就是說，有關部門考慮的出發點仍然是以“我”為主，對生、冷僻字字庫這一技術性問題的解決，僅僅考慮到部門利益的計量而忽視了公眾利益的維護。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
現代社會個人權益與公共權益的運行理念認為，如果一項個人權益有益於公共權益，它在被保護之列；如果一項所謂的公共權益有損於多數人的個人權益，它在被廢止之列。姓名權看似事小，但牽涉到千家萬戶，這種權益並非是某個個人、組織或單位的專用品，而是所有公民可以分享的公共產品。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
制度的改革關鍵是觀念的創新，對於我們的職能機構來說，現代公共服務的理念和角色還沒有充分確立，對相關的知識和工作程式及法律也缺乏足夠準備，對社會需求和利益的體察還存在相當的盲區。正是這種狀態，使某些職能機構常常根據慣性思維，將來自內外部的社會壓力（越來越多的人在取名上多元化也是一種管理上的壓力），理解為一種“出軌”，只能用行政條令的方式來“禁止”。這種理解不僅將遮蔽政府對自身公共組織理念和角色進行大膽轉型的必要性，而且可能把政府職能引向一種簡單化的“我管你從”思維模式，這其實無益於社會文明的進步。 (chinesenewsnet.com)
所以，對於姓名規範一事，建議有關部門多傾聽民眾的廣泛意見，在社會各界達成基本共識的基礎上再對此下定論，可否？（《中國經濟時報》5月27日文/畢舸） ▲ Collapse
| | | | Zhoudan
Local time: 00:55
English to Chinese
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抛开生僻字输入投入问题不谈，单从便于沟通的角度来看，我赞成规范用字。业务往来中，客户递上名片，读不出上面的名字是比较尴尬的。学校老师拿到新生点名册，第一件事情就是查生字，以免点名时念不出名字出洋相。
我经常需要翻译学生成绩单之类的东西，学生名字采用拼音，碰到生僻字，《新华字典》查不到，就得翻老厚老厚的《辞海》，费时费力。
其实，为了孩子着想，我觉得连笔划很多的字也最好不要用到名字里。一年级新生刚学写字，现在作业本很多，每本都要写上大名，要是笔划一多，更苦了孩子。记得很多年以前，我表姐的孩子就说：“木头两个子好写，我叫‘姚木头’就好了。”听者大笑。
规范名字用字，不管政府出于什么动机（节省投入等），客观效果应该是好的。
| | | | Kvasir
Canada
Local time: 10:55
English to Chinese
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| all for freedom of expression | May 30, 2003 |
I mean, as long as the character exists in the dictionary, people should be allowed to use it.
Just because the characters haven't been used often for a long time doesn't mean people can't use them now. It is a weak excuse to impose such limits just because the characters have not been mapped in conventional codes.
contrary, characters should be created to fit the needs of the society.
Instead of limiting the number of characters that can be used, why not ... See more I mean, as long as the character exists in the dictionary, people should be allowed to use it.
Just because the characters haven't been used often for a long time doesn't mean people can't use them now. It is a weak excuse to impose such limits just because the characters have not been mapped in conventional codes.
contrary, characters should be created to fit the needs of the society.
Instead of limiting the number of characters that can be used, why not revolutionise the way chinese characters are handled digitally? I'm not a computer genius, but i'm sure there are ways components or radical of chinese characters be stored separately like the alphabet, and then put together piece by piece allowing much greater freedom to create new characters. (sorta like the Changjie approach)
It is quite an opposite direction taken by the governments of HK and the Mainland. In HK, the government has been encouraging computer users to install the HK character set which includes the additional cantonese-specific characters. While in the mainland they are trying to control the characters that can be used for names.
when i first read Zhoudan's quote on her cousin: ~{NR1m=c5D:"WS>MK5#:!0D>M7A=8vWS:CP4#,NR=P!.R&D>M7!/>M:CAK!#!1~} I thought it didn't quite make sense why she included it there, because from my own experience this is actually the exact idea used by parents to tell off their complaining children.
Children would complain about how weird or difficult their names are and the parents would tell them off: "~{D>M7A=8vWS:CP4~},~{Dc2;Hg>M=P~} 'X~{D>M7!/:C0I~}!" Interestingly the same idea can be a counter-argument depending on how you word it. I'm sure a child would rather be teased by his difficult, unconventional name than being called a ~{D>M7~}.
Look at names in western alphabetic languages, new first names are created all the time. Names that are popular now have not been popular, say 20 or 50 years ago, or vice versa.
A living language is always evolving, and being bogged down by technologic difficulties and limits is simply counter-intuitive.
-Kvasir
[Edited at 2003-05-30 04:44] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 09:55
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Zhoudan 和 Kvasir，
刚才拜读了二位的评论，衷心感谢你们畅所欲言，发表自己的看法。你们的看法正好代表了目前人们对这一话题的两种态度。
我同意Zhoudan的看法。我这里想强调的是，中国字一直是在有意识地或者无意识地沿着一条产生-流行-遗忘-尘封的轨迹发展。这是因为文字是为人的生活和生产服务的。如果人们发现没有必要使用某个字时，很可能就会... See more Zhoudan 和 Kvasir，
刚才拜读了二位的评论，衷心感谢你们畅所欲言，发表自己的看法。你们的看法正好代表了目前人们对这一话题的两种态度。
我同意Zhoudan的看法。我这里想强调的是，中国字一直是在有意识地或者无意识地沿着一条产生-流行-遗忘-尘封的轨迹发展。这是因为文字是为人的生活和生产服务的。如果人们发现没有必要使用某个字时，很可能就会将其搁置一边，渐渐淡忘。
我比较反对的一种做法是，孩子父母和家人为了彰显学问的高深而刻意追求用字的生僻。就是避开电脑不谈，也很难让多数人知道其发音和含义。我的三弟家就经过这么一场争论。他的岳父大人是某师范大学的汉语教师，非要在康熙字典中给宝贝外孙起名字。最后经过争论，还是岳父大人胜利了。我看那孩子将来上电脑就就只能用拼音署名了。
Kvasir的观点也的确不是没有道理。从保全的观点看问题，似乎是丢一个字，就丢一块历史。但是，中国人的姓名是否有必要去刻意强调历史吗？恐怕是仁者见仁，智者见智了。
依我看，随着社会的发展，汉字的确牵涉一个求舍问题，特别是现代科技还不能把所有的汉字都容纳进电脑里，而且现代生活需要推陈出新，建造更多的新词汇，而非唤醒尘封已久的老字。
其实我更担心是中国字和词汇过多地被外来语充斥而失去其本身的美。日语就是这样一个例子。
[Edited at 2003-05-30 06:43] ▲ Collapse
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Zhoudan
Local time: 00:55
English to Chinese
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[quote]Kvasir wrote:
when i first read Zhoudan's quote on her cousin: ~{NR1m=c5D:"WS>MK5#:!0D>M7A=8vWS:CP4#,NR=P!.R&D>M7!/>M:CAK!#!1~} I thought it didn't quite make sense why she included it there, because from my own experience this is actually the exact idea used by parents to tell off their complaining children.
“木头”这个例子只想说明:孩子很讨厌写自己笔划很多的名字，但他年龄小，不知道果真叫这个名字是要给同学笑话的，只因为“木头”两字笔划少，他就愿意这样叫。这层意思可能我原先没有表达清楚，让Kvasir误解了。
像我这样用拼音输入的人来说，生僻字笔划多少不是一个问题，有问题的是读音。读不出字，就输不进去。这是一个大问题。
不错，每个人都有权利使用字典里的字。权利这个问题太大，很难讨论清楚，恐怕也永远说不清楚。我觉得限制名字用字，首先要看它的出发点，要看客观效果。造字费用高不能成为限制用字的出发点，这一点是肯定的。
| | | | Marta Argat
Local time: 19:55
Chinese to Ukrainian
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| a house-wife's point of view :D | May 30, 2003 |
The more interesting and beautiful names, the better! There are too many other technical restrictions in our lives to consider a child's name according to a _contemporary_ software. The more suiteble software may be created tomorrow!
Moreover: which syllable would you stress in my Ukrainian surname? And if there are much more syllables in a surname? Sometimes ... See more
| | | | Kvasir
Canada
Local time: 10:55
English to Chinese
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| my guess.... | May 31, 2003 |
Marta Argat wrote:
Moreover: which syllable would you stress in my Ukrainian surname?
without knowing any ukrainian, or as a tongue-tied homeroom teacher, i would first attempt \\\"ARgat\\\". But I think a sensible teacher should always ask the student first on his/her first try on pronuncing the name if he/she is unsure.
Marta Argat wrote:
And if there are much more syllables in a surname?
Yeah, i\\\'m sick of good-old direct transliteration of foreign names. I always shake my head in disgust when i see vendors selling overpriced calligraphy of generic transliteration of foreign first names to tourists.
It most circumstances these are sufficient. But for anyone who would like a PROPER CHINESE name, I would usually use the first syllable to get an authentic chinese surname. It is often that the entire surname is used to give a person\\\'s 3-character chinese name, however.
This is how i\\\'d do it:
If the transliteration of the surname\\\'s first syllable matches serveral possible chinese surnames, i\\\'d usually pick the one that is the most common. If the surname has a literal meaning that can be readily expressed in a single character and it happens that it\\\'s ALSO a real chinese surname, i would go ahead and use that instead of following the transliteration.
Since the actual name can appear in one or two characters (for Han-ethnic names anyway), i\\\'d ask the person what configuration they would prefer. I think one-character name is much more popular in the Mainland than elsewhere (meanwhile people are going through great lengths to make sure difficult/unique characters are used in the name, go figure! Why not just use a two-character name!?).
There are two choices i would go through to pick a name for the person:
- using the first and middle names to get the 2 characters
- using the first name only
I usually avoid using conventional and establish translation of christian names, that is a bit passe.
The name doesn\\\'t have to make sense as a noun or an adjective, but it should at least look like a usual Chinese name any other chinese would choose. It is not important that the name have a direct meaning. The two characters have meaning as individual unit of course, but there\\\'s not always a meaning when the two are put together in a name. To increase a level of sophistication, the tone combination should be pleasant or natural (this is usally more important in Cantonese with their 9 tones).
Check out the following names picked for the former governors of HK (keep in mind these are picked based on cantonese pronunciation):
Chris Patten - 碸﹚眃
Lord MacLehose of Beoch - 沉瞶疎 颈里
Sir Mark Aitchison Young - 法紏礱 里
Sir Cecil Clementi - ゅ 里
Sir Geoffry Alexander Stafford Northcote - 霉碔瓣 里
Just to illustrate how well these names were handpicked: Many HK people, including me -- without knowing much history and ex-governors -- sometimes think their public institutions or streets were name after CHINESE people!
Sir Reginald Edward Stubbs - 畕┺ 里
in this case, Stubbs matches one of the few Han-ethnic double-character surname 畕.
many more at: http://hk.geocities.com/jerrychan21032539/file/hkgovernor.html
Marta Argat wrote: Sometimes reading a student\\\'s surname with the stres in the right place is a difficult task for a teacher...
Exactly, each type of language has its own difficulties. Stress is not so much a problem in chinese, for example.
I think the problem with many teachers is that they are afraid to appear anything less than knowledgeable in front of the students.
What is so wrong with asking a student?
Here comes my question: how are names of ethnic minorities handled in Mainland china? Do these people have official names that are written in their original languages? or are the \\\"sinofied\\\" ones the only official versions?
Ex:
焊秨
稲穝谋霉
(the very few non-Han-ethnic names that i know of)
Final thought: in the world\\\'s increasing multicultural societies, are we to bar difficult or foreign-origin names from being used?
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Kevin Yang
Local time: 09:55
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | The more interesting and beautiful names, the better! | May 31, 2003 |
Hello, Marta, (or would you prefer Tavarish Argat?)
I have not seen you for a long time. Thank you for coming back. I always enjoy hearing from you, our Ukrainian sister.
I agree with you that "The more interesting and beautiful names, the better!" But the challenge for the poor parents is how to be creative in selecting the Chinese characters so as to avoid the clich�. One approach is to search for the ... See more Hello, Marta, (or would you prefer Tavarish Argat?)
I have not seen you for a long time. Thank you for coming back. I always enjoy hearing from you, our Ukrainian sister.
I agree with you that "The more interesting and beautiful names, the better!" But the challenge for the poor parents is how to be creative in selecting the Chinese characters so as to avoid the clich�. One approach is to search for the uncommonly used characters. The problem for that is such characters are often not included in the computers or internet browsers. You know how annoy that can be to a Chinese person, especially when a wrong character is used as a substitution to his/her given name.
Talking about students, I read some horrifying reports about the Chinese students in Ukraine were beaten up by the locals and many were hospitalized. I wonder what the Chinese students had done wrong to the Ukrainians. Do you know anything about it?
Kevin
Marta Argat wrote: The more interesting and beautiful names, the better! There are too many other technical restrictions in our lives to consider a child's name according to a _contemporary_ software. [Edited at 2003-05-30 19:35] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marta Argat
Local time: 19:55
Chinese to Ukrainian
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| not only in the name of names :) | May 31, 2003 |
Dear Kevin,
The news you have told us are very shocking, I did not hear about that/these accident(s) and do not know what to think! I stay in Switzerland now and read news about Ukraine not so often. I will ask friends ( if they know... )
Well, to be back to the names: I have read the article very attentively and I think the problem is a little bit exagerrated. IMHO, proposing not to use or restrict some characters from being used in people's names seems to be just a way to ... See more Dear Kevin,
The news you have told us are very shocking, I did not hear about that/these accident(s) and do not know what to think! I stay in Switzerland now and read news about Ukraine not so often. I will ask friends ( if they know... )
Well, to be back to the names: I have read the article very attentively and I think the problem is a little bit exagerrated. IMHO, proposing not to use or restrict some characters from being used in people's names seems to be just a way to attract our attention to the main problem: we need a better, more developed software. I believe it would be created soon. All heritage of the Chinese language should be preserved and given to the new generations, no matter if all these treasures of language serve just for the names or whatever. For the teachers: "bu chi xia wen".
And, btw, how are these complicated characters were printed in "Cihai"'s last edition? I think, by that time the publishing house had already been computerised.
Be back soon. Yours,
Marta ArgAt. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kvasir
Canada
Local time: 10:55
English to Chinese
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| Chinese Printing. | May 31, 2003 |
Marta Argat wrote:
And, btw, how are these complicated characters were printed in "Cihai"'s last edition? I think, by that time the publishing house had already been computerised.
hmmm... i personally don't know when was the last edition of "Cihai". But in the past, printing of chinese material was done using 采 (not sure what the term is in english or mandarin) made of lead or something with the character engraved at one end. I would imagine "difficult" or "uncommon" characters can be easily made on demand.
I had the luck to visit a press house for a newspaper in HK when i was very young. On the trip i was given the three 采 that make up my Chinese name. I would imagine they are relics now.
-Kvasir
| | | | Marta Argat
Local time: 19:55
Chinese to Ukrainian
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| if I am not mistaken... | May 31, 2003 |
A big, but flat, book of improvements and additions to the big "Cihai" was published in 1989.
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Zhoudan
Local time: 00:55
English to Chinese
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| 1999 edition | May 31, 2003 |
Marta Argat wrote:
A big, but flat, book of improvements and additions to the big "Cihai" was published in 1989.
Cihai is revised every ten years and the latest edition was done in 1999.
| | | | Y_Bill
Local time: 00:55
Chinese to English
+ ...
关于这个问题的两个观点我认为都有道理，但是：
1。我不赞成由“国家语委”来“规范”（regulate)本应自然发展的语言现象。对语言的问题宁可失之宽容，不可失之偏狭；赞成“规范”的朋友不妨提倡采取“建议”（advise)和“鼓励”(encourage)的方式，而避免用“规范”“管理”等接近行政命令的手段来处理最需要活泼自由的文化与社会现象。“国家语委”像是一个�... See more 关于这个问题的两个观点我认为都有道理，但是：
1。我不赞成由“国家语委”来“规范”（regulate)本应自然发展的语言现象。对语言的问题宁可失之宽容，不可失之偏狭；赞成“规范”的朋友不妨提倡采取“建议”（advise)和“鼓励”(encourage)的方式，而避免用“规范”“管理”等接近行政命令的手段来处理最需要活泼自由的文化与社会现象。“国家语委”像是一个行政机构，而我们需要的是一个顾问性质的学术文化机构来建立社会的价值取向；这方面我们的教训有许多。
2。顺便说点有关繁简汉字统一的问题：统一是必然的趋势，适当简化也是必然的趋势。而两岸三地需要共同着力避免的是语言文字问题的政治化。我的个人意见：繁体字需要简化，而简体字简化不合理的地方也需要恢复传统的“繁体字”，果真有文字统一的一天，应该由两岸三地的文字专家、历史家、文化问题专家等学术文化人士进行充分讨论，提出建议，以传统的、文化的和审美的角度来确立中国文字的书写体系，以适应可能到来的中华文化的复兴。
Bill
[Edited at 2003-06-01 11:51] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marta Argat
Local time: 19:55
Chinese to Ukrainian
+ ...
| programming vs. metal cast | Jun 1, 2003 |
I bought that "Cihai" leaving China in the summer of 1999...
Well, nowadays, I think, it is easier to create a software than cast, cut out a puncheon and then use mixed technique.
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